LeadingLane Podcast

Ashley (00:00)
Welcome everyone back to the leading lane podcast. are here. is the week of Christmas somehow, which is wild. Stephen, is it wild for you?

Steven L. Burch (00:12)
my god, now you know where, where did December go? I just told Brandon, I was like, I don't even know what I did in December, to be quite honest, but here we are. Let's wrap it up and get into the new year, I guess.

Ashley (00:15)
Where did a year go?

we are.

We're ready

for a new year, a new year, that is for sure. Yes, but go for it.

Steven L. Burch (00:31)
I'm...

Go ahead. Nope. Nope. My brain's not working today, so you're gonna have to just go with the bumps here.

Ashley (00:36)
great time.

All right, so today we're going to talk about leadership styles. There's obviously all kinds, but I found a really interesting TikTok. I find interesting things on there. Mine tend to be geared toward business and leadership. So it was ⁓ what the difference is between a nice leader and a kind leader and which one they think is the better leader to be. So I have specific examples, but Stephen, before we hop in, do you have any thoughts?

Steven L. Burch (01:09)
No, I just think, like, to clarify, like, overall, like, where my mind goes with nice versus kind, like, I think nice is trying to accommodate everybody else and make things work for them. And then kind is being conscious of how you treat them, but still getting, like, you're not allowing them to go the direction that they think it should be going. You're not just being passive with it. So I think it's very similar in words.

for the most part, but really two totally different mindsets and shifts and styles. So just making sure that you pay attention to what the definition is first before jumping in because you could get into a lot of trouble.

Ashley (01:52)
Yeah. Well, I think, right. I think like those words are interesting too, because people I think want to be seen as nice, like, right? Like, she's nice. Like she's, I think that being quote unquote, like nice doesn't always get the job done, which you can relate back to real estate too. But if you have find and compassionate, ⁓ I think that that can correlate in different ways. So one of the first examples they had was a night.

Steven L. Burch (02:00)
Sure.

Thank

Ashley (02:18)
leader avoids conflict and prefers just the simple comfort where a kind leader would confront with care and then which that obviously is an attempt to build trust with your people.

Steven L. Burch (02:34)
And I go back to, I mean, we say this all the time, is kind, unclear is unkind. And sometimes I think being extremely clear can maybe be labeled as blunt or, you know, straight to the point or direct, right? Like all these negative, but the more clear that you can be is kind. And what really triggers that in my mind is like, I never want to be unkind to anybody.

Ashley (02:49)
Correct.

Steven L. Burch (03:02)
Like that's never my intentions. I mean, I can be, but that's never really my intentions as being a leader. Right. And so when I was positioned with this, like, are you trying to being unkind to them? Well, no. And then so are they trying to be unkind to me? No. So the more clear that I can cut through the bullshit and just make sure that we're both on the same page, it's I think also the understanding here of what you are putting out there in, you know, making sure that they comprehend.

Like they have to receive it and comprehend it in their manner and not just the way that you think it should be. So I don't know. I just go kind always. I don't want to be unkind.

Ashley (03:45)
I more information sometimes might be hard for some people to take in, then I feel, I think I saw another TikTok where it said something about emails, like I don't request emails ⁓ just because I like having paper documents or whatever. The point of emails is sometimes that is the easiest way to dictate things. Sometimes...

Steven L. Burch (03:50)
Mm-hmm.

Ashley (04:09)
It's something that someone can go back to, right, to keep as far as references. I think that that's where just like being overly information, even with clients and leadership in general. I think even when you're talking to other people, giving like round answers, not so that people can kind of try to shift through the craft. If you're just more upfront and not leaving room for interpretation, I think that's more kind.

Steven L. Burch (04:12)
Mm-hmm.

Well then also with that being said too, like you guess you have a reference point, but now you have a clear reference point that you can go back to and see and identify or hopefully identify where did this message, the delivery maybe go awry? Like where could I have done a little bit differently so that the next time that this pops up, like we don't have this issue. And I think it's a constant revolving and evolving document, if you will, reference points. So the more that you could.

put it in writing the more clarity that you are actually having, because you then can start seeing how people are reading it, because one person can read it one way and the next person is going to read it completely differently just because of the way that the different, like the layout of it, right, and how it is spelled out. So I think being able to go, and that's what we do have implemented in our team, is that...

when there's now any uncertainty or there's a question, you go to the document, you highlight it, and you comment exactly on that document of reference. What is this? We need clarity. This is what happened. There's a new situation that occurred, so how do I handle it based off of what is already written? It's your foundation of the line pointing. So I think that the... And it's taken me so long to still evolve into...

that system of how do get everybody on the same page because you I used to personally just you know, hey I need you to go do this and I was not very clear so it was unkind and I was actually thinking that I was being nice by just giving them the leeway but in reality that created so much more work for them for me frustration etc. So writing everything down now for me with one way or another and documenting it delivering it is

the way that I have to be able to do it so I can identify how can I be better at it as a leader and communicate better to my team.

Ashley (06:31)
One thing like we as leaders, never continue. We never stopped learning, right? Like it's always evolving and just how the world is like we have to continue to evolve and the way that people interpret things, all of that, like it's just an ongoing process of making ourselves better as well. ⁓

Steven L. Burch (06:33)
No.

What do you think the

struggles would be if you or somebody that is continuously being nice, nice to a customer over and over and over again, what are the pros, what are the cons to that?

Ashley (06:55)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I think, you know, nice, I think that that leads a lot leaves a lot of room for people to be walked over. I think that's kind of when you're like, quote unquote, too nice. Like that's where I think people see like as a pushover almost like, well, she's just so nice, she'll take care of it. Or she's just so nice that we can ask her to cut her commission because she wouldn't she wouldn't say no to us. She's just too nice for them. You know, or I think even like when you're dealing with other agents.

Steven L. Burch (07:12)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Ashley (07:33)
in negotiations, same thing. Like if they think you're too nice, they might try to take advantage of a counter offer, an amendment, etc. I think that there's a place and a time for being like nice, right? Like strangers, right? You're to be nice, you're going to be kind, those types of things. I think in business, ⁓ I think it is more so of the niceness has to turn into kindness, which is where you can still be like nice to someone, but you're going to be also set in your ways like, like,

No, like, that's not right. And I think that's the other thing too is I think that a lot of people are argumentative when you don't necessarily agree and same thing. I don't think you have to be mean. You can be nicer in your approach. So I think for me, like I've had to work on that. Like, sometimes I get so frustrated because I just feel so stupid to me what some people fight about or like their tone, like always be like, like, did like, why did you talk to me like that? Right. And so I used to get defensive right away. Where now I just am like,

Okay, well that's fine if we're going to agree to disagree. That's all we can do. And then most people don't know what to do after that point in time and normally turn around. So I think it's just more or less making sure that people understand there's a line of like, yeah, I'll be like, I will be nice up to this point, but there is going to be a fine line in the sand where like the niceness isn't going to happen.

Steven L. Burch (08:54)
And you know, in business there is no emotion, right? There shouldn't be emotion that's attached to it. That's why that, you one of the many reasons why we're hired in the transaction is to help eliminate the emotions between the buyer and a seller. And so here we are talking about nice and kind, right? Like these are words of emotions. And I think it's the journey and, my mind goes to a visual journey.

Like you said, you go from nice, now you enter into a kind world. Now we're entering into like a representation world and we don't have room for, or we need to eliminate as many emotions as we possibly can to make a educated decision on whatever is in front of us. So I think it's making sure that as you know, as you evolve in that relationship, how that perception or how... ⁓

you need to change and shift for that journey to continue to go through. Because if you're always stuck in that nice realm and you never switch over to the representation realm or even into the kind realm, things are gonna get sideways and get hairy pretty darn quickly.

Ashley (10:06)
Well, and I think it's like when you are that nice, it's, I think it's like hard to go backwards, right? Like then if you do start being a little bit more firm, like then that's where that nice gets turned in real fast. She's a bee or you know what I mean? Like that's where you have to try to find that happy medium. And I think most people will say that at least at this point in time and like, Oh, like you seem like a straight shooter. Right. And I think if you can set that with people from the beginning, it just makes having those conversations, maybe tougher conversations down the road.

Steven L. Burch (10:11)
Great.

Ashley (10:36)
A little bit easier.

Steven L. Burch (10:38)
Yeah, I had a buyer consult on Friday actually. And, you know, she came into the office and she told me, was like, well, I don't think that I'm there yet. And as far as the, you know, having to meet and, know, I don't want to waste your time, blah, blah, blah. Like, no, I would much rather let's get together. Let's meet face to face. I want to know what your goals are. And the very like probably three minutes in she was like, look, like

I need somebody to be no bullshit with me. Tell me straight up. And I was like, I got you girl. So let's go ahead and go through this. We had an hour, hour and a half long conversation way more than what she even thought, way more than I even thought, which is totally fine because she had really good questions and comments that we needed to address. When we got done, she was like, thank you. This was exactly what I needed. Even though I didn't know that I needed it. You made me come in, even though it was uncomfortable.

but thank you for being no bullsh** straight up and being real with me. And I think that's what in this industry and in sales in general, like any sales industry, people don't want to be sold to. They want to know the bullet points. They want to know what matters to them and making sure that they're not being fluffed or they're not, you you're trying to take advantage of them. They want the reassurance that you're there to work in their best interests.

And even if it is something that they don't want to hear, once you can tell them that, even of how small it is, if you can tell them something that they don't want to hear and that they need to hear, you're creating that trust and relationship even stronger upfront than trying to be nice all the way through. And if she doesn't come back to me, she doesn't come back to me. It is what it is. But I know I was being very honest and upfront with her.

and it's super important to stay strong and not just try to win somebody over to get them into a contract.

Ashley (12:38)
think that, you know, even in a, I think about that when you're talking about negotiations, right? So like, I had a seller that didn't really want to make any repairs, or he thought that they were dumb. And since I have already had that open relationship and like, nope, this is what we should or shouldn't do. You know, I, it's a lot easier to be like, I mean, that is kind of a big safety thing. So if it were me, I would suggest that you do make that repair. so right then,

Steven L. Burch (12:58)
Mm-hmm.

Ashley (13:04)
they're already expecting that from you versus like, you're right. Don't make any repairs, right? So I think if you can set that tone, it helps throughout the whole transaction, obviously with clients and with staff.

Steven L. Burch (13:06)
Right.

Love it. So how can you give the listeners, give them two tips on how are you still remaining kind without being a bitch or being whatever, right? Like how can you still deliver this information without them taking it the wrong way?

Ashley (13:42)
think lot of it comes down to the calmness. So I get that feedback a lot. The people always be like, you're so calm, like all the time. So I think that when you do have to deliver not so great news, or you do have to, you know, point out when an agent has done something wrong, I think one like the calmness, I think how you approach it more so of like, you know, this might be a tough conversation. ⁓

Steven L. Burch (13:45)
Hmm.

Ashley (14:09)
but I think also being open with them. And I think that's where that lets them know that you care. And right, like there's a lot of times that we could let things slide. I mean, I think about when I first started, like I used to let things slide because it was easier to not deal with, right? But we learned throughout time that you're not helping anybody, you're not helping them grow as agents, you're not helping your clients understand better unless you do have those conversations. And I think that

calmness, think, you know, behind closed doors, I think, allowing them, you know, absorb it to I think I've had to have that a couple times where, you know, you don't necessarily push for answers right away. But I think what we've kind of talked about to, you know, like, the 131 type of thing, you know, letting them try to like, work them through themselves through it, or this is what happened.

Steven L. Burch (14:54)
Mm-hmm.

Ashley (15:01)
Is there anything that you think maybe you could have done differently? So I think that that's where the leadership comes into is like continuing to push them so you can acknowledge it. And even on a good, if somebody did something good, right? Like you did an excellent job. You know, is there anything that you would have done different in the future or maybe next time you did this, which is great, but maybe you could also do this. So think there's an ability of having to try to continue to push people's limits. ⁓ And I think.

One of the biggest things that I will have learned is like, you have to do the right thing even when it's the hard thing. And I think we used to try to avoid those types of things too. And for me, if it's the right thing, as tough as the conversation might be, I'll be happy that I have the conversation and someone will learn from it. And then I can live with myself at the end of the day.

Steven L. Burch (15:36)
Hmm.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think here too, like, echoing, basically asking them the questions and it's putting, you almost take down that defense of when you put it in a position, like, okay, I have some information, I'm the messenger. How do you want me to deliver this over to you? Do you want it? Do you want to go ahead and read it yourself? Do you want to review it together? Like, how do you want this?

You're putting them in charge, but giving them very specific answers of A, or C of how they want to choose their pathway. You're still allowing them to make choices, but you're controlling how that next step is going to be delivered. And I think when you put it in that perspective for them, like it automatically really just kind of lowers the defense, lowers that wall because they're making that choice. And they're not mad at you now.

Ashley (16:38)
Mm-hmm.

Steven L. Burch (16:51)
because you're not the one delivering it, they're gonna be mad at the information. And then I think the other thing here too is all about the approach. Like everything goes back to the approach of, I have some not so great information at the end of this, you will be able to choose how you wanna move forward and I want you to marinate on how all of this is going to affect you and make the decision tomorrow. I'm not looking for a decision today, all it is is,

Let's get the information to you, you marinate on it, and then tomorrow we'll go ahead and respond. Those just gives people the reassurance of like, we don't need to react. Listen to understand, don't listen to react. And I think that that helps people all the way around. And if it's in negotiations, if it's going to be in leadership and you're coaching a team member or whatever the case may be.

You're giving them the power, making sure that they know that you're coming from a place of kind versus a this is how has to be, or what do you want to do? And completely leave it up to them and have no direction or confidence in whatever is happening.

Ashley (18:01)
I think the other thing, you like I would encourage listeners to do is that, like don't always assume that like closed doors mean bad things, right? ⁓ so when you talk about like, right, not, not coming across, I, to this day, I feel like when I ask someone to come in my office, I always have to frame it with you're not in trouble. Cause I think that that's what we think about, like when we were growing up, right? Like you only got called into the principal's office, like when you were in trouble, ⁓ where I think it's more just.

Steven L. Burch (18:08)
See you.

Ashley (18:27)
I don't think that you should necessarily have to have improvement type of conversations in front of everyone. So I'm going to ask you to come to my office, which is all glass anyway, so everyone will know that you're here. You know, so I think that that's something I always try to approach like, okay, we're not in trouble, you did nothing wrong. ⁓ But a lot of times we'll be like, this is a teachable moment. And I think just trying to lead with that, even when people do make costly mistakes, I think ⁓

Steven L. Burch (18:33)
right.

Mm-hmm.

Ashley (18:56)
We have those people make mistakes in real estate transactions. Right. We're all humans and I, you can always tell like when people, like, it's almost like the soul gets sucked out of them. Like as you're telling them, like that they made a mistake and I'm always like, it's okay. Like everyone will be fine. There's a way around it. It's a great learning lesson. ⁓ and I think just trying to be kind through that, but also like just leading with clarity as to what.

Steven L. Burch (18:58)
Of course, we're humans.

Mm-hmm.

Ashley (19:23)
happened. This is other approaches, what are we going to do the next time that this something like this comes up? And a lot of times it's, I people are like in such rush moments, because that's the world we live in. And if we could all just slow down. And that's, and I think I've talked about this one time, too, but I had an agent that made a costly mistake on a transaction. And one thing I recommended was reading the contract backwards. So when you read it, like

Steven L. Burch (19:46)
Mm-hmm.

Ashley (19:49)
front to end, right? Like it's so easy in your head to just skip to all the blanks as to where, know, like it should read this, it should read this. And so when I started, I started reading backwards so that like, why is that line blank? And then I'd go like, read it backwards. So you're not reading it in the order that your brain is used to reading it in. And then he told me that on like the next transaction, he caught something that he had missed the first time through because he read it backwards. And I was like, yes, works.

Steven L. Burch (20:15)
I wasn't crazy. It does work.

Ashley (20:18)
Yeah. Right. I think

it's because we've been doing this for so long, some of us, right. And like, it's just, it's like second nature to know where everything is. But sometimes people use different contracts or some agents have different words that they use that we don't use. And until you start to look at it backwards, if you will, does it maybe stand out to you that it was wrong?

Steven L. Burch (20:25)
rain.

I think all of these are great things, not only in leadership, but in real life, everyday situations and negotiations all the way around. And it, and it drills back to communication, comprehension and communication and making sure that you always are improving yourself and improving others that are around you. So that's what it's all about. Love it. Thank you for listening to the Leading Lane podcast and we look forward to you listening to the next one.

Ashley (20:58)
Great topic.